Do the Change with Brandon Phillips, MS

Part 1: Do the Change with Brandon Phillips

TYRA PARRISH: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Do the Change podcast, where we're challenging you reimagining OEHS. And so this podcast focuses on highlighting uplifting leaders in their field and how they got to where they are today with a special focus on the field of occupational health and environmental health Sciences and also health equity. And so we're going to be talking about the hills and the valleys of their journeys and get some insight into the non-traditional path into the field. So my name is Tara Parrish, and I'm a recent graduate from the MPH program here at Cal. And our guess for the episode is Brandon Phillips.

So Brandon was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and grew up in Hampton, Virginia. So he's currently a second year MS student in the Environmental Health Sciences Department at UC Berkeley where his advisor is Dr. Carisa Harris-Adamson. And his main research topics revolve around occupational health and safety of construction workers, primarily when it comes to the implementation of exoskeletons. So welcome to the podcast. I almost got through all of it.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Thank you. It is great to be here, Tyra.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah. Awesome to have you. And so first, we're going to start with the check-in question, which is what songs would be on the soundtrack of your life?

BRANDON PHILLIPS: OK. So the first song would be Win Some, Lose Some by Big Sean because my life has been ups and downs. So I have to do that one. Congratulations by Drake because currently, we're on a high rise. And for a fun one, Self Love by Coi Leray. That's been for the past month. So shout-out to Spider-Man.

TYRA PARRISH: Oh, OK. Those are good ones. I feel like-- I didn't even really think about this. I should have thought about this. OK. I feel like I would do Break My Soul by Beyonce. That's the first one that came into my head because I just liked the song. It's like a funky beat.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Yeah.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah. And it's just super like uplifting. So I like it. Let's see. Let me see if I can think of one more really quick. I can't think of another one right now. But that's the one I'm going to stick with. Maybe that's the only one I need to say. OK. So we're just going to jump straight into the first question, which is, one, walk us through your journey into the field of ergonomics and also why Berkeley. And also, if you define for the listeners what is ergonomics because I just recently, like within the last two years, learned what that was. So if you can define it and then tell us how you got into it.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Yeah. So basically, ergonomics is trying to fit a job for the person, so that they don't have a high chance of having an on the job injury.

TYRA PARRISH: OK. Gotcha.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Yeah. So essentially how I got into this was when I was in undergrad around my junior year, I met someone who was a great advisor. His name is Mark Dalecki. And I was in his lab. And we did stuff with the brain. And I got into research that way. And he told me about biomechanics.

So after I graduated, I went to my first MS in that. And when I was doing a job search, I saw that I could do this thing called ergonomics. So I was like, OK, what is that? And then I had an internship at Mayo at the-- sorry. I had an internship at the Mayo Clinic and touched briefly on ergo there.

So I remember it was in November. And I emailed Dr. Harris at like 5:00 AM New York time. So it was 3 o'clock or like 2 o'clock Berkeley time, asking to talk to her. And she emailed me when I woke up at 8:00 AM. And me and her talked the very next day. And I just asked point blank. I was like based off my like, quote unquote, history and my interest, you think I should apply? And she was like, yeah, sure. I think we have a spot for you here.

So yeah. So that's how that started, and that's how I chose Berkeley. But honestly, Berkeley was a Hail Mary school. So when I was applying for schools, I always choose a school that I don't think I will actually get into. And I had it as Columbia. But I was like, you know what? I don't have one on the West Coast. So I emailed her and like that's how this happened.

TYRA PARRISH: I mean, the Hail Mary is like-- I was going to use a football term, but I don't watch football. But like it went through that little goal post. But that's cool. So I guess, like what about ergonomics really like got you besides like the biomechanics part?

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Yes. So with biomechanics, I enjoyed what I was doing. But the problem with it is biomechanics is basically after you got hurt, which when I was currently doing my MS at my old school, I got tired of seeing people hurt. So when I found out that ergo is I want to stop that, I was like, OK, cool. So that's why I had to switch. And I found out ergo is a subsection of EHS. So that's what brought me here.

TYRA PARRISH: OK. That makes a lot of sense because I was like, how do you-- but that's really cool. And like even being at Cal and learning about ergonomics, I'm like it's literally in everything. It's just like how to not help people get like-- the thing that pops into my head is like folks who do braids and stuff, they get like carpal tunnel. And so like ergo would be thinking about maybe like developing a machine where they can kind of ice their hands or something like that while they're doing their work and stuff like that. So that's really cool.

And I also just want to follow up with can you share some challenges or obstacles you faced, like switching into that field or trying to get into that field.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: So yes, biomechanics is more math-heavy for me, which ergonomics is too. But EHS overall has been a rough road. Biostats, I'm used to calculus, all that stuff. It's like an opposite field. And my first year here was harder because here, 12 hours is the bare minimum. At my old school, nine hours was. So like I had to make that switch with how much I could handle here. As far as personally to get here overall, research-wise, I guess finding out what I like because you can do your own thing while you're in grad school, but it's better if you have a topic you like so it makes it easier.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah. I guess because you mentioned like because you came from the East Coast to the West Coast, how was just that outside of school, how was that transition from?

BRANDON PHILLIPS: So I grew up in the East Coast. I went to bachelors in the South. And then I did a master's in the northern southern region and then came here. So I've seen a whole bunch of cultures per se. But I like here the most because everyone's very relaxed. They're chill. I mean, school is high stress, yes. But like overall, the vibes are just more chill. So I enjoy it more. And I love the weather out here honestly.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah. I feel like the only section of the US you're missing is the actual mid, mid like west, like Montana--

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Midwest. Idaho. Yeah.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah. Yeah. If you want to get a PhD, just hit the Midwest.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Inside there, yeah.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah. Then you've been to basically all--

BRANDON PHILLIPS: All the area.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah. Yeah, basically. OK. So in your journey, you mentioned Carisa. Were there any other mentors that kind of helped influence your journey or kind of shape your journey into their ergo?

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Yes. Marc Dalecki. Professor, he's the one who got me into research. I would not be where I am today without him. He honestly has made me into the man I am right now because he's like helped me from undergrad, masters, to even here.

And then David Young also at the same school. I had whole physics 1 with him and 2. And I actually got to see in both of those classes. But he knew that I knew the material, but I just couldn't take a test. So he vouched for me with the application. But those two have been my like-- they helped me out the most. So big shoutout to them honestly.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah. And you know what? That's so real because I'm the same way where I do not test very well like at all. And it's frustrating because you're like, I know this stuff. Like if I talk to you--

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Know the material. Yeah.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah. If it was a oral test where I'm just sitting with the professor, oh, I know everything.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Exactly.

TYRA PARRISH: But as soon as you're like pen to paper, I'm like I--

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Like what happened?

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah. We got to a point where a professor had to tell me. He was like, you need to retake this class with a different professor because I can't test however your brain thinks whatever. And then it worked. But that's so real, where it's like-- and that's OK I guess. For anyone else who's the same way, like--

BRANDON PHILLIPS: It's OK.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah. Both me and Brandon are like, it's OK.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: I've been there.

TYRA PARRISH: We've been there been there. It's OK. You get past it. You move on. OK. So I'm going to switch to OEHS specific questions since you're totally within that field. So like what are some key skills or qualities that you feel are necessary in order to kind succeed in the field or put yourself in a position to do well? And then are there any just specific areas of expertise or knowledge that you feel that folks who are trying to get into the field to kind of orient themselves kind of with?

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Yeah, I got you. I would say currently, being creative because every problem that you find in this field, it's not going to have the same answer. Like just being at my current job right now. Like I will see the problem, know how to do it. But usually, what happens with me personally is I'll have an ergonomic post-assessment. And then I'm like, OK, this is easy, whatever. Then I have to fix the problem.

But usually what happens from what I've seen is it's not like school where I will tell you what to do, and like you'll do it because you just know that it's the best option. Most people are like, hmm, I like it, but I don't want to do it. So can you choose some other route for me to do it? And I'm just like, well here's the best option, but I can go through others that might not have the highest effect, but it might help you some. So I would say learning how to be creative because not each answer is a obvious one.

Critical thinking skills, but that also goes with how to find the answer. Those are the two main skills I would say. And question two, I didn't hear you. Sorry.

TYRA PARRISH: Oh, yeah. It was are there any specific areas of expertise or knowledge, I guess, like within your field? So if it's like-- Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: As far as undergraduate, like bio major type thing.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah. I mean, if you feel like that's important or if you feel like there were like areas or subjects that maybe you didn't think were important. And then in ergo, you're like, oh, shoot. Like that was probably a lot more important than I thought it was?

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Honestly just taking ergo classes and actually having actual experience helped out the most because even with every class that I've had with Harris, her main concern is can you do this practically? Like we still have tests. But her focus is here's a tool. Can you use this? Do you know how to use it in unorthodox ways to get the job done? So actually having experience I think is a top skill.

As far as having a, quote unquote, background with a whole degree, I don't think there's no rigid one. You just need a science one to have the background. And then grad school will like teach you the main skills honestly. Just like basic science, math type.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah. OK. Yeah. And I really like what you said about the creativity part because I think that's what made me also interested in ergo is because you're right, where it's like you can have the best-- like you can have a plan where this is like the most maximum like impact you're going to have. But realistically, people more often times than are not going to--

BRANDON PHILLIPS: They're not gonna take the first one.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah. They're not going to take it. I feel like, even when you mentioned like Carissa's point about like is it practical? It could be very practical. It could be the best thing that you've ever created in your entire life. And people are not going to take it.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: If they don't want it, they will not take it.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah. And like sometimes, you got to settle for like, OK, so instead of 100% effective, we might have to settle for 60 because that's what most people are going to do. Yeah. And I think that your advice on being creative is helpful because you got to come up with five, six, seven ways to do one thing, even though you know the first thing I said--

BRANDON PHILLIPS: The first one is the best one. They don't want that. They want like the fifth or sixth one that's not the best, but I like it. So yeah.

TYRA PARRISH: Right. Yeah. And I feel like also like location and access to resources probably impact that too, where it's like--

BRANDON PHILLIPS: That's true. Yes.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah. We're like if we had all the right things, this would be great. But realistically, people aren't going to have--

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Not gonna have that.

TYRA PARRISH: Right. OK. So now, I'm going to do a hard topic shift to what you are currently doing now. So you're currently working at the, hope I say this right, Lumentum?

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Lumentum Operations. Yes.

TYRA PARRISH: Thank you. Multiple syllables always get me. So Lumentum Operations. As an intern or for your summer practicum. And so what do they have currently doing, and also how do you go about securing the internship?

BRANDON PHILLIPS: So they currently have me as an environmental, health, and safety intern. And basically, my boss hired me because she saw I was ergonomics. So that was like a plus. I was thankful because she I think had over 60 people applied.

TYRA PARRISH: OK.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: So yeah. But I told her that I wanted the full range of knowledge during this. So currently, she has me doing everything from ergonomics, risk assessment, toxicology type stuff, chemical inventory. So like something that I just did actually is we had a ergonomic problem with a lab engineer with their back and came up with a solution.

She's about my age. So we're like cool. We like talk about it. Saw her the next day. And I was like, hey, have you ordered the help you need that I help you out with? And she was like, I'm still thinking about it, but I appreciate it. I was like, OK. I was like, if you want me to do it over again, to have a new whole solution, let me know. She's like, sure. So yeah. So ergonomics.

But overall, the internship has shown me a lot about EHS as a whole. And that has been fun because I've been able to go in those labs also. So it's just been like a wide spectrum of EHS. So it's been great. As far as getting the internship, it's in the LIHTC realm. So honestly, I heard about it I think on Twitter. This is my second internship that I found off of social media.

So I'm a heavy believer in searching for internships on Twitter, Instagram because I've gotten to like this. But I found out about it. I like saw it on there. And then I applied in October. I didn't hear back to get past round one until like January. So it was a while. And then I had about three rounds. I had one with the main person in charge who's my boss. Met the team. Met my boss again. And then I got the offer in February.

So as far as advice with like that, I would say applying early is the best thing to do because again, I thought my application was in the trash after a while because I applied so early. But yeah. I applied in October. And it worked out around early March, February. Because I was talking to Aldo about it around that time actually. So yeah.

TYRA PARRISH: OK, cool. I have never heard of someone finding internship on Twitter. That is a first for me.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Yes. So background with that story. I got my internship at the Mayo Clinic off of Twitter in 2021. And how it worked out was I just searched biomechanics internships, and it popped up. And my old boss at the time had an account. And I also come to find out that there was a problem with the main website. So had you not seen the tweet, you would not to email her, to tell her that I had an application. So use social media. That is what I could say.

TYRA PARRISH: What I mean, like am I am stunned. Because people always say, like LinkedIn, and what's the other one? This job recruiter one.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Glassdoor. Indeed.

TYRA PARRISH: Indeed. Yeah. And so I've never thought about Twitter. I've heard certain stories on Instagram. But that is great.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: It's where it's at.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah I'm so shocked by this, Twitter. That's really crazy. OK. So I have a followup question, which you kind of touched on, which was-- I guess it's a question where how important it is, particularly in ergo, for upcoming people to have practical experience. Would you say that the field of ergonomics is pretty much like majority, get as much experience as you can before jumping into the field, or do you feel like it's like a mix of what you said of experience and skill?

BRANDON PHILLIPS: I feel like-- OK. So I'm a big person who believes as long as you can convince someone, do whatever job you can do. Because on I'll finesse. I will find some way to finesse, like tell you. So with ergo, personally, I think it's a mixture of there's entry spots, but also I've been seeing a whole bunch of they want a whole person who has at least a year of experience, two years. So I would say it's more practical. But you can get that experience through research, lab, internship. As long as you can justify you being able to do it, use whatever you can do.

TYRA PARRISH: OK. I received that.

Hi, guys. This is Tyra Parrish, your host for this episode, and we have reached the end of part one of this conversation with this amazing speaker. Don't click out yet because part two of this conversation has already been posted. So go ahead and click over to the next page, and don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel and Spotify page.

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Part 2: Do the Change with Brandon Phillips

TYRA PARRISH: Hey, y'all. Welcome to part 2 of our conversation with our amazing speaker on Do the Change podcast. We're going to hop right back into the conversation. Don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel, Spotify page, and follow us on Instagram at Do the Change podcast.

OK. My last-- I guess, well, it's not my last question. But before I shift topics, this is my last question. But what are your goals postgrad because you're finishing your second year right now? And have you started that job search considering that you said you need to start early? Have you started, I don't know, touching base on that? Or just in general, what are your goals postgrad?

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Postgrad, I am still deciding if I'm going to stay for a PhD or not. But if it goes--

TYRA PARRISH: But it's Midwest.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Yes. [CHUCKLES] If it goes that route, I'll be reapplying in a few months. If I decide that I'm cool right now, I'll start applying for jobs probably in August. That's what I've heard because you can't really have a company hold the spot too, like, too long. So I was thinking, probably six months out at the max. But I would start to at least search by August of who to probably apply to.

But my goal is to either be a EHS specialist or an EHS engineer, and then work my way up to a EHS manager. And then finally, just get to the top. So I just wanted to be the best in my field honestly. I want to make sure everyone is safe, not having problems at work, fixing everything that deals with MSD, toxicology-type stuff, anything that helps out with the whole workers.

TYRA PARRISH: OK. Well, I see a director in our future in a couple years. So I'm here for that. So now we are going to do a topic shift. It is now Tea Time with Tyra. I love this segment. I don't have my tea today. But it's OK because it stays here.

So the first question is, so as you know, the field of OEHS is not as diverse as it could be even within the Ergo program at Cal. I'll air it out a little bit. There's not that many students of color. [CHUCKLES] I feel like I actually know all the students of color, which is problematic, but that's OK.

So I'm just wondering how that lack of representation in the field has impacted you just as a person and just walking in those spaces? And also, what is your input on why do you think that that's happening just in general?

BRANDON PHILLIPS: So me personally, when I see a PLC in our whole spaces, it's great because, even being at the school, there are not a lot. So I like seeing it.

I think the biggest issue with this thing is most PLCs do not know about it because me personally, I didn't know about ergonomics or EHS until I looked up jobs in biomechanics. Which I didn't know about biomechanics until I met my mentor in undergrad. Which I honestly didn't know about my undergrad, whole major, until I switched over because I was a biology whole major at first, and I switched to kinesiology. So that's how that works.

So I think the biggest problem is most people do not know about this. And I think if we start making spaces to talk about this to high schoolers, then it's a higher chance of there being an increase in the future.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah. I think you're spot on with that because it's like, I didn't even know what ergonomics was until I came here.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Exactly.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah. And then I was like, I hope this is really cool. And I even had to tell my sister. She's doing civil engineering right now. And all she talks about is like, oh, I want to choose, I want to make things better. Like there are better ways to make chairs to help people. There are better ways to make things so that people don't experience pain.

And then later on, when I found out about ergonomics, I'm like, Jasmine, you want to do ergonomics. You don't want to be a civil engineer, which is cool, but it's like, that's not it for her.

So I think you're totally right that if we knew, then it'd be so much easier, spend a lot less time maybe not going the best path. She can move to ergo pretty easily because it's the same-ish field. But yeah, I think you're spot on with that.

And I want to follow-up with, are there any barriers outside of lack of knowledge of the field in regards to not being a lot of POC students or underserved students in the field?

BRANDON PHILLIPS: I think, honestly, from what I've seen most of the time, if it's not due to not knowing, it's you have to have a college degree to even have an internship. And again, places will take out a degree. But you have to actually show reference that I've actually done this, which usually is internship. So in a long stretch, even having the chance to go to college can be a barrier, honestly.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah. I didn't know that. That's really, I don't want to say it's stupid because I don't want to discredit that. But it's also like a barrier where it's just like there are great people who don't have college degrees. But just because of that, you get blocked from even having that opportunity.

OK, so now for my next question. In your opinion, what are some systemic barriers that individuals from underrepresented racial-- well, you talked about this actually, like one systemic barriers, just access to education. So I guess I'll just start with the followup question, which is how can organizations and industries work towards addressing and getting rid of these barriers and promoting greater inclusivity into the field?

BRANDON PHILLIPS: OK. So something that's my current company does, which I thought was amazing, not to pat them on back too much. But I was talking about this. They actually have a DIB scholarship specifically for POCs. And they are giving, I think, 10 of the interns this summer a $10,000 scholarship to go back to school after they're done here.

So they're clearly addressing the problem of even paying for school, which is a big fee for a whole bunch of people because I actually had a friend at my old school. He wasn't POC, but he had a problem where he got into the program, and he got halfway through. But since he was out of state, out-of-state fees, it was just too much for him. So he had to drop the whole program even though he was halfway done because, again, he was halfway done.

TYRA PARRISH: Right. Yeah, that's really cool that your job is doing that because sometimes it's like, even Berkeley was expensive to apply to. And I can't imagine--

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Berkeley is very expensive to apply to.

TYRA PARRISH: It's very expensive to apply to, get here, and then stay here. Let's be real. The Bay Area is so expensive.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: It's expensive, yes.

TYRA PARRISH: It's so expensive. So that $10,000 probably, I know it makes a huge difference of, OK, now I can afford to apply to schools. And that just gives people so much freedom with what to do.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Exactly.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah. Shout out to-- I can't say the name, but you know who I'm talking--

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Lumentum.

TYRA PARRISH: Thank you, Lumentum. Shout out to Lumentum.

[CHUCKLES]

OK, so last question in this Tea Time. Are there any mentorship programs or professional organizations that you would recommend for young folks in the field who come from diverse backgrounds or any you have heard of or any organizations or groups you're a part of?

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Yes. So when I was in biomechanics-- I'm still a biomechanist. But back then, there was this group called Black Biomechanists, and it includes not only biomechanics people but human factors, people which human factors goes with like ergo. So I read about that.

As far as in the ergonomics world, and EHS, I haven't heard a lot, but I will say this, as far as mentorships, I'm a big person who's like, the worst they'll say is no. So something I personally do is if I see or if there is a way for me to talk to a POC who's in EHS, who has the same job as me and I see them on LinkedIn, I'm just going to add them, honestly. And then be like, hey, I'm not trying to be weird, but we're both POCs. And I just thought it was great to see you also. So that's why I'm adding you.

And then from what I've seen, most of the time, people are nice. I will say this, I actually met someone at Apple who added me on LinkedIn the exact same way. I just was like, hey, I'm not trying to be weird or anything, but I admire you, your job, whatever, and I just would like to know more.

So most people will answer and say, thank you for that. And most of them think, hey, you took the extra mile to actually say something to me. So I'll help you out. So my advice is, just ask, say something, and you'll probably hear something back.

TYRA PARRISH: Yeah, that's good advice. The worst they can say is no.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: That is what's got me a lot honestly.

[LAUGHTER]

TYRA PARRISH: And it's like, if you don't ask, it's definitely a no.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: Exactly.

TYRA PARRISH: And it's like, the same amount of time is going to pass by between you sending the message and you're not sending the message.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: So the worst they can say is no.

TYRA PARRISH: Right. Yeah, that's like a life model. Worst thing they can say is no, and then move on.

OK. So we are coming to the end of this amazing conversation with Brandon. So first, I want to thank you for just being here, being open, honest, and also just giving some just straight advice, just cleared.

[LAUGHTER]

And so before we end, I want to end with some questions about self-care, and then also leave any space if you want to add any closing thoughts or more advice for upcoming leaders, stuff like that. OK. So first question is what is your self-care routine, and what do you do to decompress just after work or whatever?

BRANDON PHILLIPS: You've known me for the past year. So you know I rarely get depressed.

[LAUGHTER]

TYRA PARRISH: I know. Just food for thought.

TYRA PARRISH: But when I do decompress, I usually hang out with friends or I go for a walk, honestly. If I'm really just stressed out, I like to go for a run.

As far as self-care, something that I highly recommend is-- and I know it's hard to do this in college. But I have a strict rule. After 12 o'clock, I don't care. Whatever is due at 12 o'clock, I don't care. Go to sleep. You can do it in the morning. I strongly recommend that because you stay up past 12:00 isn't going to help you out. So that is one piece of advice I will say. After 12 o'clock, do not care.

[LAUGHTER]

TYRA PARRISH: That is so real because I'm the same at-- my marker's a little bit earlier maybe because I know I get a little woozy after 10:00 PM. 10:00 PM is my marker, where I'm like-- I'm a morning person. So it's a done deal. If I start getting sleepy, start wobbling, I'm going to bed. But that's hilarious. After 12:00, I don't care. [LAUGHS] Sorry.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: And you will wake up, have a clear mind. So as far as quotes, my top one is, "the worst they can say is no." And I strongly live by that because everything I've done, I thought about it, said, you know what, maybe I shouldn't go. Shouldn't but then, as you said, even if you don't do it, time will pass still. So send that message, ask that person, do whatever you have to do.

TYRA PARRISH: OK. Well, I again want to thank you for coming onto our podcast. And I want to thank you all for tuning in. And yeah.

BRANDON PHILLIPS: You're a great host, Tyra.

TYRA PARRISH: Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. All right, guys. So stay tuned.