Do the Change with Kevin Ru

Part 1: Do the Change with Kevin Ru

JOANNE TEH: Hey guys, welcome to the Do the Change podcast where we're challenging and reimagining occupational and Environmental Health Sciences. In this podcast we focus on upcoming and current leaders in the field and dive into how they got to where they are today and their advice for those interested in the field. My name is Joanne and I'm a current undergraduate here at Berkeley and our guest for this episode is Kevin Ru. Hi Kevin.

KEVIN RU, MPH: Hello everyone.

JOANNE TEH: So I'll start by introducing him. Kevin is an MPH student in epidemiology bio-statistics graduating in May this year. He is passionate about addressing chronic disease disparities in marginalized communities. Through data-driven insights he helps to contribute to the mitigation of Occupational and environmental health exposures and promote safer workplaces for those most disproportionately affected. Born and raised in California, Kevin also received his BS in biology with a minor in society and genetics from UCLA. Awesome, how are you today, Kevin?

KEVIN RU, MPH: I'm doing pretty well thank you so much for having me on here, it's a pleasure. How are you?

JOANNE TEH: Good, good same with me. I guess we can get started about like what you do, right, because I just said that you do epidemiology and biostatistics but many people don't know what those words actually mean, me included actually.

KEVIN RU, MPH: Yeah definitely, so I am studying epidemiology and biostatistics as Joanne described and essentially epidemiology, really the goal is kind of to understand disease patterns and trends, understand exposures, what might lead to certain diseases, how we can essentially we're really interested in a lot, oftentimes a lot of the systemic causes of certain diseases and conditions and how we can prevent those and mitigate those and for me particularly my interests are really in chronic disease disparities for like marginalized populations where we see a worse wealth outcome. So Epi, that's where Epi comes in with a lot of these different study designs and Tech techniques in essentially exploring that and actually evaluating that in collecting data and understanding the extent to which these, why these populations might be at more at risk for certain conditions and diseases compared to others.

JOANNE TEH: What does like a usual day in your life look like when you're like doing this are you just going to classes, what type of research do you do?

KEVIN RU, MPH: Yeah, no I think a day in life it really ranges, it really depends on the day, some days I might have classes that I'll start out the day with. Other times I might be just going off into work first things like that and for me work looks like a variety of different ways. Besides working at the center for occupational environmental health as well, I am also pretty involved in working, I work with some faculty and some research surrounding occupational health in particular. Yeah so my Capstone project has been working on this California janitor workload study, specifically I'm interested in and have been assessing the impact of unionization on the relationships between physical workload and adverse health outcomes in these group of janitors that have been studied in this larger cohort. And I think that's it's really it's really great to be a part of that since it's pretty relevant right now in terms of how big um the labor movement has been recently especially in this past year there's been a lot of Union activity and there's been a great big insurgence and interest in unionization and the labor movement overall. It's been really interesting being able to work on that, assess those associations and even be able to present that at some conferences. This past month I was able to go out to Utah the NORA, the annual NORA conference at the Rocky Mountains hosted by the Rocky Mountain Center For Occupational environmental health, which was really great just being able to present that work and also I'll be going to the annual SER meeting, the society for epidemologic research in Austin in June to also present on that. So it's been great being a part of that. So long story short I think that every day is a bit different for my week and I think it keeps things exciting, engaging.

JOANNE TEH: That's cool working with janitors in labor unions, that's awesome, but like how does that tie into epidemiology? Like my idea of epidemiology is like disease so like how does the labor unions part of that get tied into that?

KEVIN RU, MPH: Yeah definitely, I mean with understanding diseases or just oftentimes we're often interested in just understanding for janitors in particular for example like there's a lot of concerns with chronic pain, specifically muscle-skeletal disorders and these long-term chronic Health outcomes, adverse Health outcomes, mental health in particular is an area of increasing concern especially with the greater strain on janitors from during the pandemic. We found that oftentimes that could be traced potentially to workload and that's what we kind of started out with with the study was assessing the impact of workload on these different associations. And in terms of Union status I was, we were in particular curious about whether Union status was an effect modifier in this relationship and what effect modifier is essentially this kind of third variable where our exposure and our outcome is going to vary essentially like our the relationship is going to be different potentially between these two groups, so essentially we were interested to see if Union janitors versus non-union janitors what were those differences in associations? Would we see more perhaps adverse Health outcomes in non-union janitors compared to Union janitors so that was kind of the start of that question, kind of assessing working from first like understanding just those initial exposures of physical workload, like how hard are these janitors, how frequently are their tasks, their kind of their general daily workload and understanding the variety of health outcomes that were potentially associated with that and then kind of that's where afterwards we kind of brought Union status into that as well.

JOANNE TEH: Wow, that's cool, so it's like really really interdisciplinary.

KEVIN RU, MPH: Yeah definitely I think you really bring in a lot of different aspects. This study in particular was of course Dr Chris Harris's study and very much focused on ergonomics, was kind of at the forefront of it in the sense that especially in janitors in particular they face a lot of biomechanical workload stressors, particularly like the how hard they're exerting, often times with these repetitive constant motions that they're doing on their day-to-day tasks can again lead to these variety of these chronic health outcomes, so it's been interesting applying more of my Epi, more of my technical Epi background and more the study design and statistical side of things into a field, especially a field such as Ergo where I feel it's continually advancing and really starting to potentially make a big difference for workers in the field.

JOANNE TEH: Mhm. That's cool. Do you ever find that you're involved with like the more like social justice aspect of it or like the labor unions and like fighting for workers rights, are you ever involved with that?

KEVIN RU, MPH: I've mostly been on kind of the back end of things of kind of just assessing and understanding the potential implications of unionization and things like that, but I think that's, you bring up a great point and it's definitely something that's increasingly important in terms of being, making sure that workers actually understand their rights and know what is available to them and their resources available to them and that's often times why we've seen in some of the literature why union workers often have this kind of protective benefit because they have more support, more resources and more information available to them and have greater protections and worker safety as a result of unionization and those collective bargaining contracts.

JOANNE TEH: I see so it's all kind of intertwined.

KEVIN RU, MPH: Yeah.

JOANNE TEH: That's pretty cool. How did you even get involved with this work with janitors? Is that kind of like your end goal like working with janitors continually?

KEVIN RU, MPH: Good question, I think for me I was for when we were searching for a Capstone I was kind of just looking around I've always been interested broadly in occupational environmental exposures but didn't necessarily have a specific data set in mind or a study group that I was ,that I knew I was going to get involved with and was able to work with and the opportunity kind of came up to work on this specifically looking at unionization, it was a perfect opportunity kind of for me to jump into that space and work into that I wouldn't say that janitors are necessarily, studying like the janitors aren't necessarily my end goal by any means but I would say I think it aligns a lot with my interests especially in working with more marginalized populations I feel like of workers. I think a lot of my interests are are working with more much of the more vulnerable workers where I feel again like often times there's just less protections in place for them and it's I think it's important to have more studies conducted to shed more light and make sure that there's increasing regulation and support for these workers.

JOANNE TEH: Wow, that's awesome. I guess to like back track a little bit even more, how did you decide that you liked working with Occupational Health like what fueled your interest in the first place?

KEVIN RU, MPH: Yeah, definitely. I think for me my inspiration was really pretty personal in the sense it was just witnessing my mom works at a nail salon and having witnessed over just watching her come home over the years like growing up and seeing kind of the toll of just her occupation that really had on her over the years just seeing like even, just witnessing her hands like the cracked skin from just working with all these chemicals all constantly, the fatigue from the work being in again very kind of similar to janitors actually in often these very repetitive motions except for her she's often very stationary for most of the day as well and just seeing kind of the damage that just the occupation itself had taken on her over the years was pretty impactful and I always had an interest in occupational and that's really what stemmed my interest in occupational environmental health exposures in particular and then when I came here and had the opportunity to work at the COEH I feel like being directly exposed to in just really the more broader field and world of occupational environmental health and just seeing how interdisciplinary and how everything was very intertwined was really inspiring for me and why I have been very, got drawn in and havent looked back since.

JOANNE TEH: Awesome, that's really cool. I bet your mom is happy about that like that's it comes from such a place close to the heart. I've also seen some stuff online like working with gel nail polish can you like an allergy over time, scary stuff.

KEVIN RU, MPH: Yeah, yeah I have heard about that too, people developing allergies later there's just I feel like there's so many potential hazards often in a lot of these different occupations that just come out it's pretty-

JOANNE TEH: So like when you mentioned working marginalized populations you just mean like workers who are like vulnerable workers you said? Could you define that a little bit more?

KEVIN RU, MPH: Yeah, yeah. I would say that's also a thing there's been a lot of definitions of vulnerable workers I feel especially the word like precarious comes up a lot. There's not necessarily a specific definition of precarious work or precarity of work, like just a general consensus a lot of the definitions often surround the idea of just workers often it's a low wage work potentially with little job security, little worker protection, overwhelming worker demands like just larger workload burden, things like that can often be associated with I'd say precarious work. Of course just dangerous work in general I feel like also definitely falls into that scope as well is how I would potentially define that.

JOANNE TEH: Yeah I think that's useful for people who like, like I also have an interest in helping these type of populations but I would I didn't previously know what the term for it is or like what the field of study around it looks like currently. So yeah that's really interesting. I guess I have another question that backtracks a little bit more in your life. Maybe we should have started from like the start of your life towards now, but now I want to ask you so like in your bio I read that you did a BS in biology at UCLA, were you always interested in human biology, how did your like path look?

KEVIN RU, MPH: Well for me I was initially premed actually for quite some time so the classic bio major to line up with that perfectly. I mean for me bio was always interesting I did enjoy just in general the stem and was always very interesting to me and I did enjoy learning about the life sciences a lot but it wasn't until my senior year where I did my major or towards the end of my undergrad when I did my minor in society and genetics and I was really exposed to more of that interdisciplinary nature between like the life sciences scientific field health and just really understanding the social determinants of health and particular that was when I was really exposed to the concept and the idea of social determinants of health and all these different factors that are at an interplay in defining and dictating someone's health, overall health and well-being and that got me more interested in public health. I started taking some Public Health courses during my undergrad and then during my gap year I, well I graduated during Covid and during my gap year I worked in Covid testing and surveillance which really was at the at the time before like just being out there in the field where for public health, very much in the midst of Public Health and kind of really enjoying that type of work and wanting to get more involved in it that's kind of what led me to apply for my MPH here at Berkeley and where has led me to where I am now.

JOANNE TEH: I feel like it's a, you're the second person so far in this podcast who was premed turned occupational environmental health, I feel like it's kind of a tough decision to make because you invest so much into being Premed in your undergrad years like what were your, what were your large determining factors.

KEVIN RU, MPH: Yeah, definitely I think it's it's definitely tough because I at the heart of it all I really enjoy just working with people and being able to just directly engage and interact with individuals and I think being a doctor or just being a medical professional you're really just right there you're always seeing patients interacting with patients face to face things like that but I think as I was just being exposed to a lot more different perspectives and again a lot more knowledge towards the later end of my undergrad during my gap year I think I really became a lot more interested in just understanding the systemic like the root causes of a lot of these different Health outcomes like rather than coming from a standpoint of kind of trying to cure and like kind of patch up all these different conditions and outcomes I was more, I really became a lot more interested in more of a preventative approach. I feel like often times in just in a lot of different fields and situations in general I feel like we often take a response approach where if something bad happens something occurs then we kind of have this legislation then we kind of place these protections in place, etc so I was really interested in finding ways to just establish these protect preventative measures in the first place and kind of being able to contribute to that and I think through public health and especially within my discipline I think that's really the, one of the big aspects that we're doing is kind of understanding what are these specific exposures what is exactly leading to a lot of these Health outcomes that might be affecting some groups more disproportionally than others and things like that. It was tough I'd say but I really enjoy what I'm doing now and I just I actually I really fell in love with research as a whole I'd say.

JOANNE TEH: Awesome, wow that's like a really good perspective into administering care, Health Care for the population. Do you think the fact that it was like you were graduating during Covid, do you think the fact that Covid was going on in the world at that time played a role in your decision? I mean yeah like you had the experience with Covid work.

KEVIN RU, MPH: Yeah I'd say so definitely. I'm sure for a lot of people Covid definitely really changed a lot of people's perspective and I feel like exposed a lot of us to a lot of different things that we maybe just wouldn't really consider before I think especially what during my gap year working like in that kind of space and engaging with a lot of individuals and and often being the ones educating them just on like oh this this these are the testing guidelines these are the quarantine guidelines, etc just like it's simple stuff such as that I feel like you really start to understand how impactful I think just even just education, like public health education for a standpoint just informing the public is really public health is at the center of it, we're trying to protect and promote the people's, the population's health and well-being, right? And I think Covid really showed me, the pandemic really showed me kind of the extent to that in which and how important and much needed that is throughout the country and the world.

JOANNE TEH: Is that kind of how you landed on epidemiology biostatistics?

KEVIN RU, MPH: Yeah, yeah I think I would say so.

JOANNE TEH: That's awesome do you have any like kind of ambitions, maybe end goals in your research that you like can think of now?

KEVIN RU, MPH: In my research, not I wouldn't say I have any end goal in particular that I can think of at the moment, but I will say that I am very much committed or intending to kind of continue on my research journey and educational journey as well since I am planning on applying to PHD programs in the fall in epidemiology, so I'm hoping to really continue to do the work that I'm doing and hopefully whether that's applying that's in staying within Academia or into federal or state government, I think that's that's really where I see myself at least as in the end goal.

JOANNE TEH: You mentioned that you could work like how does what does jobs in working, sorry hang on, let me rephrase. You mentioned working in the federal or state governments versus Academia how do, what do jobs look like for your field, those types of jobs?

KEVIN RU, MPH: I'd say it's very broad you, there are definitely a lot of different options a lot of individuals with epidemiology degrees they could often go into just straight data analytics, some might be very more interested in the statistic side of things they might become biostatisticians whether for it's the state government etc or for Consulting companies or for Health Care organizations such as Kaiser, etc. Often a lot of more on the data side of things there's research analysts similarly there might be helping with conducting the study design carrying out studies, analyzing data, health scientists very similar roles as well, I'd say there's also of course just epidemiologists roles in general where you're often like they really there's a lot of different departments and different fields like especially if you're looking at the city or just the state or County levels, addressing a lot of different things from with different focuses from mental health to environmental lead exposures to just really across the field a lot of different range of possibilities I'd say in terms of different occupations. And there are individuals that of course use, continue on to they do still are interested in medicine and still but they want that more of that public health background and part of their, to include in their training and kind of enrich their training as well and keep that perspective as they go into and become a physician or medical professional so there are individuals that also go on to medical school as well. I'd say there's a lot of different options within the field.

JOANNE TEH: What's your personal outcome that you'd like, what's your personal preference?

KEVIN RU, MPH: My personal preference, I'd say I'd either want to work I think ideally I see myself either one day becoming a professor, maybe say if I did choose to stay in Academia because I do really enjoy teaching and just working with students in addition to research or just working within the state specifically whether that's for NIOSH or like the department of industrial relations the DIR, just focus on kind of these occupational environmental exposures.

JOANNE TEH: That's awesome.

KEVIN RU, MPH: And just promote individuals' health, yeah.

JOANNE TEH: That's cool, that's cool. Have you had experience teaching OEHS before?

KEVIN RU, MPH: Not OEHS directly I would say. I have had some experience teaching as a tutor through the DREAM office. I'm currently well I today I actually just gave my final review session for the epidemiology methods 2 course so just kind of being able to teach students is something I really enjoy and this was kind of a really great opportunity to kind of put that to practice.

JOANNE TEH: Are you, does that mean you're like a GSI?

KEVIN RU, MPH: No, so it's a bit different from, it's similar, it's but a tutor it's just it's separate from like a TA or GSI.

JOANNE TEH: Cool, wow that's awesome. I feel like a key part about this field that I talked about with many of the previous podcast guests is like science communication, right, and so far a lot of them talk about science communication to the people, the populations of workers that they're specifically working with but I think this is interesting because now you're talking about science communication to teach like the next generation.

KEVIN RU, MPH: Yeah, yeah. I think that's a good point because I think at the end of the day communication really is key in how understanding and being able to adapt and be able to actively and accurately portray your information effectively there's the word effectively portray the information to different audiences is really key I think I'd say in just this field in any field really especially a field as interdisciplinary as this and where you have so many different stakeholders so many different people from different backgrounds who like you were saying at the beginning like individuals might not even understand what specific terms might mean and or just general aspects of Public Health so starting there and understanding where your audience I think is really key. But yeah I think it is exciting training, I mean I consider myself I'm only the very first year students so I'm only one year like older than them if you want to call it that but I think it's great seeing kind of we're all in the same boat, everyone's super so just so passionate about being and stepping into this really important field of just going on to become the next leaders in public health and beyond.

JOANNE TEH: I heard similar things from previous guests that like they feel like those who are involved in OEHS are really passionate about it what do you, how do you think what do you think about that?

KEVIN RU, MPH: Yeah, I'd say definitely. I feel I've met a lot of individuals I mean they've been doing this for many many years now and this is, they poured their life's work into this and it's definitely really passionate especially when we're thinking about how many people are potentially affected and like especially we're just looking across different occupations, understanding, because these are individuals that are working in these fields or whatever occupation that might be they're facing these exposures and hazards on a daily basis. This is their job they're going for to support their livelihood their families, etc and they're consistently being exposed potentially to dangerous hazards dangerous chemicals, etc but they really have no choice at the end to day and that's where it's really important for a lot of these professionals across all these different fields, you have the doctors, you have the exposure measurements assessors, you have the people conducting the studies, people running there's so many people that come together to or just for really anything there's just so many people that are coming together to kind of keep the machine going and kind of really evaluate these different exposures that make it that's, I feel like that's why it's so easy for individuals to become so passionate about it of course.

JOANNE TEH: I love to see it. I've met so many people and I've talked to so many people in the field who just like can just keep going on and on about their topic and that's just really wholesome, I think.

KEVIN RU, MPH: Yeah.

JOANNE TEH: Hey guys this is Joanne, your host for this episode and we have reached the end of part one of this conversation with our wonderful guest. Don't click out yet, because part two of this conversation has already been posted so check out our page to finish the conversation. Don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel and follow us on Spotify and Instagram @dothechangepodcast.

Part 2: Do the Change with Kevin Ru

JOANNE TEH: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to part two of our conversation with our amazing speaker on the Do the Change Podcast. We're going to jump right back into the conversation. Don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube and follow us on Spotify and Instagram @dothechangepodcast.

I wanted to ask you earlier when we were discussing like your personal journey if you had faced any obstacles or any like significant setbacks that you were able to overcome and like how.

KEVIN RU: Let's say, in terms of any obstacles, I think just starting my program, I was still relatively new to the field of public health, I'd say. My training was mostly in biology in undergrad. I didn't took very limited public health courses, not as many statistics courses so I think I definitely felt like I came in a little bit behind compared to some of my peers in the program. So I think that was kind of a challenge just the, I think, pushing myself to first, be OK. There was nothing wrong with that at all. I think everyone, that's also a nice thing about a lot of the programs within public health, especially the master's and the graduate program in general. You have so many people coming from different points, different stages in their lives and careers, et cetera, where it's really nice to learn from a lot of different perspectives. And for me, it also really motivated me to just push myself to also learn and be proactive about my learning outside of the classroom as well. If there is specific skills that I wanted to focus on, making sure to take some time to maybe find some more resources related to those, or not being afraid to ask for help if I needed it. Things like that, kind of just taking advantage. I feel like at a school like Berkeley, there's just so many different opportunities available for you, but you really have to make sure you're being proactive and taking advantage of them because they're not just going to fly to you, per se, for lack of a better word.

JOANNE TEH: Is that kind of like the advice you'd wish someone had told you when you entered the field?

KEVIN RU: I would say so. That would be a bit of it and also just really emphasizing how interdisciplinary I could see OEHS really is as a whole. And I think not being so as timid, I guess, or afraid to make connections and go out. And I think just whether it's talking to faculty, or other professionals that are in the field and the careers, I feel just being building and making connections I think early on is just so important. Because that's really, again, like how it's so interdisciplinary this field, how many different people you have kind of coming together. Not even just from the research standpoint, but of course also the communities that are affected, the workers, the labor unions, and so there's just so many different policymakers, I think. Different parts to it and just making those connections I think really is important overall.

JOANNE TEH: I feel like that's one of the scariest things for new professionals, new graduates like exiting school and then entering this new field. This new professional field that's full of people who feel like they know a lot more about it than you and like trying to find your own place in that. How were you able to overcome that fear and then start networking?

KEVIN RU: I'd say for me, in particular, I think just kind of I feel like I just ended up becoming involved in a lot of different aspects of the school and the whole, I think from there, it was just much easier in the being able to see a lot of familiar faces already. Or do you feel comfortable or already have established connections with some individuals who could then perhaps introduce me or suggest me to speak with other individuals? And from there, it kind of it felt less intimidating from that sense, or even just knowing one person, I feel like and even just seeking out advice for them on how should I approach these other individuals, etc., I think is helpful. And I think at a school like Berkeley and our school of public health, I think everyone is already just so like collaborative, so communicative, and so just open minded. And just always willing to chat and just talk and just discuss things and I think it's just makes it a lot easier and a lot less intimidating, especially compared to when it hasn't undergrad. [LAUGHS]

JOANNE TEH: I totally agree with that approach. I think that's also one of the more fun approaches. Like rather than a cold emailing, or reaching out to people on LinkedIn, I feel like just getting involved and doing activities, clubs, organizations it's really fun. You can get to know people as friends and as mentors and as part of your network.

KEVIN RU: Yeah, exactly.

JOANNE TEH: What would you say is like one of the best things you did when you first started?

KEVIN RU: One of the best things I did when I first started, I would say is probably the summer seminar that's offered by the Dream Office here at the School of Public Health. The Dream Office, they put on a summer seminar every summer that starts right before the school year and is really meant to be a space to not only provide our support in particular, our programming support to students. But also just really create a space for students to feel connected and just get to know one another and understand the resources that they have available to them before they get started with school. And that was, for me, kind of moving to the Bay Area and not knowing that many people here, not knowing anyone else at Berkeley. Kind of being able to meet new people, establish those connections early on, I think, really made a really big impact in making me feel much more comfortable in the fall semester. Already having and seeing familiar faces, having study groups that were a lot easier to establish. That was, I think, a really big part of my experience and time here at Berkeley and that's why I was really happy to be also be able to continue and work as a tutor through The Dream Office as well and still get back that support to students.

JOANNE TEH: That's awesome. That sounds like a perfect program for new students. Can you define more what the Dream Office is?

KEVIN RU: Yeah, so the Dream Office, they are focused on really promoting diversity, equity and inclusion, specifically supporting more marginalized students and people of color in public health. Really placing greater emphasis on just getting resources to those that are most in need and really making sure to provide those services to individuals you might not see as often in public health and making sure to get them the resources that they need.

JOANNE TEH: Would you say that you're involved with in DEI in public health?

KEVIN RU: I'd say so to a degree. I try at least just within my own practices, but I was a part of student government for the past two years as well here at Berkeley. And through that I was also able to help promote some DEI initiatives just throughout student government itself as well as and hopefully, set up the foundation for future years, hopefully, down the road as well as a whole student government body.

JOANNE TEH: That's awesome. I've heard, in my time at COEH, I've heard a lot of people talk about DEI in OEHS is like many people have the general opinion that it's kind of lacking. And that was like also part of that was also part of like this podcast's mission to like uplift those who are like from populations that are not as well represented in the field of OEHS professions. Would you agree with this? Like, what do you think about this?

KEVIN RU: I think it's challenging because for me, I feel like with OEHS as a field, I think oftentimes individuals, especially individuals, I feel like that are may not have the resources to have access and understand how to get into the field. I think, is a barrier as a whole like just that first step to getting into the field. I feel like for me, I was fortunate enough to just stumble into the field and understand like being able to find a position with COEH. I think things really lined up for me, but necessarily, I feel like not everyone has the knowledge and resources to actually understand like oh, there are positions. Like for example, just through COEH there's these like programs, academic programs and traineeships for students who are interested in occupational health and safety to get involved in and that's not necessarily as accessible to everyone. I think that, just that barrier of getting into OEHS field and knowing more about the OEHS field is challenging. I think even as we're trying to improve awareness and expand that education and resources, which is why ultimately, I think it's great that we're having this podcast like this. So we can just uplift more of those voices and hopefully have more people see that they too can really be a part of this field as well.

JOANNE TEH: Yeah, I totally agree. Where would you point those people towards in order for them to like get to know about these types of opportunities?

KEVIN RU: I think for me, I think that ties back into just making those connections as well. Not being afraid to just talk to people. I know cold emailing, or cold calling is always very terrifying, but at the end of the day, a lot of individuals are very much willing to just talk to you about their experiences. And I feel talking to a lot of these current professionals and hearing about their backgrounds, how they got to where they are now, I think can be very helpful and understanding your opportunities that are available to you. 

Maybe finding what might be a particular field that you're most interested, what areas and expertise or what skills you might want to develop, and understanding what your potential options are. I think talking to individuals in the field are always going to be the most impactful. I think you can always find a lot of information just online. Of course, oftentimes it's difficult to just know what to search a lot of times, but I think even just going from there, you can find a lot of information, of course. But I think it's definitely, very different when you hear from individuals personally that are in the field how they got there and understand what opportunities are available to you moving forward.

JOANNE TEH: Definitely. I think this applies to most fields too. There's like a different level of understanding from just like you, as an outsider, looking in on Google articles compared to talking to someone who has been in the field.

KEVIN RU: Yeah, exactly.

JOANNE TEH: Yeah, that's solid advice. OK, can I pivot a little bit and ask you a different type of question?

KEVIN RU: Yeah, of course.

JOANNE TEH: So, OK. Can I ask you, or in your opinion, what are some of the emerging trends, or challenges in the field that you think young professionals should be aware of and how do you see the future of the industry evolving?

KEVIN RU: Great question. I think, in terms of emerging, I think there's really a lot I feel like that's emerging right now. A lot of new innovation that's just being introduced. We have this whole a lot of especially as technology is advancing, there's a lot of this introduction of now wearables, like exoskeletons, everything ergonomics perspective. I think there's a lot of potential benefits that are being brought in to play that can potentially be very helpful to workers. But I think at the same time, as we are evaluating a lot of these different technologies and different improvements, I think we always want to make sure to be careful that we're not introducing more harm per se. And we're actually benefiting the workers and that there's clear guidelines in place of how perhaps certain new equipment is being used, et cetera. That we're still following those kind of stringent guidelines, even as perhaps technology is making tasks, or things, potentially easier.

I think as a whole in terms of challenges, I think, of course, climate change is just a large issue as a whole and especially now, we're doing I feel like we're dealing with a lot more different exposures and concerns that might not have been prevalent, or really seen prior. For example, like heat stress is a really increasing issue, especially like in a state like California. And in the Central Valley, a lot of workers are experiencing a lot of new exposures, additional exposures that are arising in concern.

So I think with the field, like OEHS I think and this isn't something emerging, per se, but I think it's just you really need to be patient and persistent with just the field as a whole, I'd say, in your research. I think, especially if you're trying to convince, or convince new policy to get enacted, things like that. I think you really have to be persistent and patient because unfortunately, a lot of things do move too slowly and as I was saying previously, I think we're often too reactive in a lot of our changes that are made. Like only after something has occurred are we then trying to remedy it and prevent in the future rather than kind of targeting those now. But I'd say there's definitely a lot out there in terms of what individuals can really expect coming their way. And I think the field will only continue to develop and change over the next few years.

JOANNE TEH: Yeah, climate change is a big one. I've heard that in every episode until now. [LAUGHS] Can I ask you what specific topics do you think is key for more new newcomers to the field to get in on to like to contribute to the work of?

KEVIN RU: That's a good question. I feel like there's a lot of possibilities. I'd say, with just surrounding heat I think like, for example, farm workers I think are always a very vulnerable population and especially exposed to a lot of the issues surrounding heat. I think recently, there's been a lot more concern around just even community exposures to certain air pollutants, things like individuals. Often, it's more marginalized populations that are living next to these like chemical plants, refineries, things like that, and I feel like understanding and actually addressing those changes is important and mitigating those various exposures. Outside of that, I think as a field, there's just so many possibilities and so many, I think different directions where you can go where I think really everything is very much needed right now. I feel like there's no shortage of different topics that are important to really delve into within the field.

JOANNE TEH: That's true. That's true. Correct me if I'm wrong, I've heard talk that there's less new professionals entering the field, like less young people.

KEVIN RU: In terms of the field of OEHS? Yeah, I see what I've heard as well through the grapevine, I think. And I think that part of it I think is due to just individuals not knowing about opportunities in OEHS in the field. And others, I think, it might just not be as interesting to them compared to especially, I feel like with this recent tech surge and AI, I feel like that has been taking more of the headlines and attention. And ultimately, especially as younger students are like looking at the news and on social media, that's what I feel like consuming and seeing the most often rather than stories about OEHS.

JOANNE TEH: That's pretty unfortunate because even when it comes to tech and I feel like so much of that has to do with OEHS. I just talked about gig workers and like people who work for Uber and Lyft and how like their boss is the algorithm rather than like a real person.

KEVIN RU: Yeah, no. It's definitely has potentially pretty devastating implications for a lot of different work and positions. And even with, of course, AI just also pushing people out of work too, which is a whole other problem in and of itself.

JOANNE TEH: Come to OEHS. [LAUGHS] It's a message the people who are interested in tech and AI, come. [LAUGHS]

KEVIN RU: I mean, and that's the thing. There's a lot of potential. I mean, with machine learning, or just AI and tech in general, and this really applies for any field. But of course, also to OEHS, there is a lot of room for utilizing that within the field, of course and that really just speaks to the interdisciplinary nature of the field. [LAUGHS]

JOANNE TEH: Yeah, yeah. Can I ask you one totally unrelated question? Or not totally unrelated.

KEVIN RU: Yeah, that's fine.

JOANNE TEH: Earlier you said wearables and I feel like that's a word that I hear a lot and I hear like kind of used often. But don't really know what that entails and I feel like the general population wouldn't be either.

KEVIN RU: Yeah, exactly.

JOANNE TEH: Can you define that?

KEVIN RU: Yes, of course. So wearables, and I am by no means an expert. I am not an ergonomist and have not received training in that. But for me, I'd say wearables are essentially if we think about just something like an exoskeleton, like a wearable exoskeleton. Wearables are essentially they're meant to be a device that an individual can wear on maybe whether it's be a specific part of their body, or their whole body. Like maybe it's a wearable for an ankle wearable or a leg wearable for individuals with perhaps more limited mobility. Or they're often working with the extremely large and heavy loads that can help support them and improve and make the work easier for them. So they don't have to put as much strain on those muscles, on their ankle or something, et cetera, and that can kind of assist them in going about their every day and day-to-day tasks. Things like that and they're often they might be wearables for specific tasks. There's a lot that goes into it. I feel like there's a lot of engineering, of course, and then there are ergonomics. There's just a lot of moving parts in that sense as well.

JOANNE TEH: That's really cool. It feels almost science fiction-like. Like, you know in Avatar where they have the people in, like, robot suits? Mecha suits?

KEVIN RU: Yes, yes. Yeah. [LAUGHTER]

JOANNE TEH: OK, let me ask you another question about the field. OK, real quick. Are there any changes or advancements you hope to see in the field coming in the future?

KEVIN RU: I think for me, some of the changes I hope to see beyond, I think where we're already moving in a direction of integrating more technology and whether that's just monitoring or enhancing worker safety. And of course, that wearables, as we just mentioned, I think are important advancements in really just enhancing workplace safety. I'd also think, especially just with the supplies to a lot of different things, but I think with OEHS in particular, and especially for some of these more precarious working positions. I think just establishing more community relationships I think is important as well and I think it's a good thing. It's never not needed, I'd say, for lack of a better word. Where just, for example, if we talk about the janitors and the janitors study, a big issue we have is just having janitors feel comfortable just even participating in these studies in the first place, I'd say. Because at the end of the day, there's not as much incentive to participate in these different studies. And instead, there's a lot of fear, potential retaliation from employers like what if I am performing in this study? What if I'm choosing to participate in this study, will I lose my job? Will I get in trouble? What are the implications of this? They need their jobs in order to support themselves and others so I think establishing more community trust. I think whether it with just local leaders like, for example, with union leaders or just leaders within these like occupational communities. Or just communities as a whole, whether if we're looking at occupational or environmental exposures, I think that's always something important that individuals should just keep in mind. I think especially in up and coming researches that we're progressing to the field. So I think building that trust really makes a difference in just overall the quality and just the effectiveness of the research. You're really bringing in all your stakeholders and onto the table into this conversation and you're able to get a lot of perspectives that might have otherwise been left out if they weren't included.

JOANNE TEH: That's a very real consideration. How would you like to build these communities of trust? What would you think are the best methods?

KEVIN RU: I think the main methods that I would say, as I mentioned, are really just like I think if there are existing connections, whether that's like through union leadership, if your workers are part of a union, they have existing relationships with building that with the relationships with the union. I mean, the union leaders, for example, discuss with the workers so they're hearing from already trusted individual rather than just all these researchers kind of storming in that they've never seen before. Something like that, I'd say, would be a great step or just like beginning to build some of those community partnerships if they're not present already. Kind of taking that first step, identify whether it's just local leaders within the community, within the occupation And finding, perhaps, also establishing relationships with employers. Seeing employers that are very much, of course, there's a lot of employers that are very invested in enhancing and protecting their employees and their overall health. So I think establishing some of those community partnerships can be a good first step as well.

JOANNE TEH: That's awesome. All this requires a lot of talking directly with union workers and talking directly with like the people who you're researching. Is that the right term? [LAUGHS] But do you feel like your day-to-day work involves that?

KEVIN RU: For my day-to-day work, not in particular. For the data we, or the surveys that we conducted, they were all done over online. Surveys that were turned in, but I would say it just varies across various different studies and groups. But I'd say that, yeah, you raise a good point in that where it's not always going to be feasible for individuals. That's one of the drawbacks, of course. It's resource intensive for individuals to go out and actually speak to everyone every day and on the day-to-day basis. But I think it's also important to continue to try to do that when possible and when actually feasible to build those. And there are individuals that are going out and interviewing workers in person, of course, and I think that helps kind of again, build that rapport.

JOANNE TEH: Awesome. So interdisciplinary. [LAUGHS] OK, let me pivot a little bit and let me can ask you about more advice for new professionals. So what do you think are key skills or qualities someone would need to succeed in this field?

KEVIN RU: I'd say key skills to succeed are really beyond just I think just, of course, the basics. Just a strong foundation in public health principles and study design methods. Things like that and we touched on a bit earlier. Just the ability to really communicate and actually disseminate all these complex different informations clearly to different groups of individuals. Whether that be your workers, policymakers, because for each different group that you're speaking to, you're going to have to need to tailor your presentation, tailor the material that you're presenting in different ways. And to highlight things that will actually matter to them, that actually they will find meaningful and be able to take away from it and be like, oh, this was actually useful. Like I understand this, I know how this can help me, how I can use this information, et cetera. I think just being able to be comfortable in engaging with different audiences. You're not always going to be in a room full of different public health individuals that all already know what you're talking about. You don't have to explain anything. I think being patient and understanding like, OK, some things you will have to break down in a very specific way. Other things you might not want to focus as much on this particular aspect. You want to talk more about something else instead because that's what really matters to the workers, for example, that's more important and driving home those key messages and being concise at the end of the day, I think. In a lot of fields, we always talk about the elevator pitch and being able to just tell your story, or a story in like very succinctly in that amount of time and I think that, of course, will apply to OEHS as well. If not, even more so just due to a lot oftentimes, especially if you're trying to engage in policy and things like that. Lawmakers or policymakers is often very little time or window for you to potentially actually present that information, or to a specific group, you might have limited time. Workers, they don't have the opportunity to perhaps be like on break for too long. You just have to work very quickly sometimes and I think being prepared for that and of course, the changing landscape is as always, important.

JOANNE TEH: So OEHS is kind of like a field where you need to be able to think on the fly, communicate well, and especially learn as you go.

KEVIN RU: I'd say so in some cases, yes, because sometimes you really don't know what you're expecting, considering depending on what you're trying to do, or what you're going out there to conduct. Maybe if you're going out to measure the exposure levels at a specific like workplace and/or assess the hazards that another, there could be very differences. Even if it's the same occupation, you might not necessarily see the same hazards or they just might be very different circumstances that you're encountering and it's important to be flexible and adaptable in addressing those.

JOANNE TEH: That's awesome. Well, OK, another question I have for you is what would you say is like the hardest lesson that you learned in your time starting out with OEHS? OK, the lesson that was the hardest to learn and you wish that you could pass on to new professionals.

KEVIN RU: Lesson that was hardest to learn. I think, for me, is just as hopeful and optimistic as we often are about, you know, making like say we identified something of concern. Like there's a risk associated with some exposure, something, et cetera, and you validated it and all of that. Like it's backed by all this other literature and things like that, but just understanding how slowly some things move and just, I think, just being realistic at the end of the day. And oftentimes, you will be successful in making potentially like for example, recently, I know individuals at Berkeley were very were pretty involved in spearheading new silicosis standards. Which was a big emerging issue among workers that were cutting these like marble tops, et cetera, being exposed to all this silicone dust. And dying of lung cancer is a pretty big pressing issue and they were able to do research and studies. Able to help influence this new standard that was put in place, but oftentimes, that's not always going to be the case. You're not always going to necessarily see such a quick turnaround of actual action, like tangible action and prevention methods being put in place. But that shouldn't discourage you by any means. I think if anything, it really should motivate you to continue pressing forward and really keep doing the work that you're doing to continue to contribute and make a difference and hopefully overall improve community health.

JOANNE TEH: That's awesome. I respect that. I feel like it takes a different kind of level of mental determination to be able to push through all those, like that what you just mentioned. To keep going on your like, passion, your project. Yeah, wow. Awesome. Is there anything else that you wanted to say that you might have forgotten to mention earlier?

KEVIN RU: No, I think we covered it all. It was awesome having me on.

JOANNE TEH: Awesome. I mean, speaking of communication, I feel like you were answering questions before I could even, like, ask you them. You were giving me very good answers. Thank you very much.

KEVIN RU: Thank you for having me asking great questions. [LAUGHS]

JOANNE TEH: I had a great time talking with you, Kevin and, yeah. Anything else? Last words to say?

KEVIN RU: No, it was my pleasure. Thanks again, Joanne. Appreciate it.

JOANNE TEH: OK, I hope you have a great rest of your day.

KEVIN RU: Thank you. You too.

JOANNE TEH: Thank you. All right, bye bye.

KEVIN RU: Bye.